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Musk’s Twitter Takeover Turns from Dumb to Dangerous: ‘BradCast’ 12/14/2022
Guest: Media activist (and Musk’s former corporate PR trainer!) ‘Spocko’
Brad Friedman
Okay. All right. And does we can do that music here and then if we need to break it up and post if need be. Okay, everybody ready? All right, here we go. Everybody’s heard about the bird. The bird is the word in this case, a bird in question is otherwise known as Twitter, which everyone has heard about by now. I think if they hadn’t prior to six weeks ago? Well, they certainly have by now it’s hard to escape conversation about it, frankly. And believe me, I have tried. Welcome back to the Brad cast Brad Friedman from Brad blog.com. To be honest, because it is all frankly so stupid and grotesque.
Well, I have been following as much as I can stomach regarding Elon Musk’s $44 billion takeover of Twitter in recent weeks. I haven’t covered much on the show here. It’s all largely an ill advised and even accidental because he tried to get out of the dumb overpriced deal after he had made the initial offer, but couldn’t. It’s an ill advised ego trip for Musk in general who has in the six weeks ago since he took over the social network platform cozied up with right wingers and conspiracy theorists and right wing politicians who had previously been banned from the service for encouraging violence or spreading false claims about COVID and election fraud and more.
He’s removed the Permanent Account bans on for example, a whole bunch of Neo Nazis and Q anon conspiracy accounts. Also he’s restored the accounts of people like Donald Trump who has yet to take the bait. Surprisingly enough. Far right Georgia Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, who has returned to use the platform to, yes spread more misinformation about COVID vaccines and phony cures. And of course, the rap artists formerly known as Kanye West, who has since been re banned just days later after being let back onto the service after he posted a swastika in his Twitter feed.
Over the past week or so, Musk has has had a few hand selected journalists and that he’s given access to to certain internal files at Twitter, with the agreement that any stories that they file must first be posted on Twitter itself. In a series that they have dubbed the Twitter files. they purport to show the decision making process and internal debates among company executives when it comes to things like the difficult decision of finally banning Donald Trump’s account permanently, years after it should have already been banned for violating so many of Twitter’s policies and leading to so much violence and even death.
When I have read those Twitter file stories over the past week, on Twitter, I saw company executives described as wrestling with different difficult topics and how best to handle them and how to explain them to the public when the myriad of folks from the right and yes, even many from the far left, read some of those threads. Well, they have clearly seen them as confirmation that right wingers had been purposely mistreated for purely political purposes by the left wing executives at Twitter. But the information posted in those Twitter files, stories that I read never actually showed any evidence of that. But those looking for confirmation bias whether they actually bothered to read the threads or not well, they were able to find what they were looking for, it seems as easily as they believe they saw evidence of massive fraud in the 2020 presidential election where no fraud, or at least evidence of it actually exists either.
Since Musk bought Twitter, a number of researchers and advocacy groups have pointed to a huge spike in posts that contain racial epithets, as well as attacks on Jewish people, LGBTQ people, particularly those who are transgender or advocates for the community. According to musk, Twitter acted quickly to reduce the overall visit visibility of posts like that, ironically enough, that is the exact same thing that is actually highlighted by those supposedly damning Twitter file threads, detailing how the company reduced the visibility of offensive or violent or dangerously misleading tweets, before Elon Musk took it over.
So to be frank, I find all of this just so stupid, and pointless and good for nobody on a service that actually once served a critical public need both in the US and around the globe. So because of that, frankly, I haven’t wanted to spend my time or waste yours talking about it. Well. Now it seems what is going on there is actually becoming somewhat dangerous, I think and yes, worth talking about to see if only to see if there’s anything that can be done about it.
As AP reports this week, Elon Musk’s Twitter has now dissolved its Trust and Safety Council the advisory group of around 100 independent civil human rights and other organizations that the company formed in 2016 to address hate speech, child exploitation, suicide, self harm and other problems on the platform. The council had been scheduled to meet with Twitter representatives on Monday night but Twitter informed the group via email that it was disbanding it entirely shortly before the meeting was to take place. That according to multiple members, the council members who provide an images of the email they received from Twitter to the Associated Press spoke on the condition of anonymity due to fears of retaliation and they had good reason for those fears, which I’ll get to in a moment. The email said Twitter was quote reevaluating how best to bring external insight knights and the council is quote, not the best structure to do this. Our work to make Twitter a safe, informative place will be moving faster and more aggressively than ever before and we will continue to welcome your ideas going forward about how to achieve this goal said the email which was signed simply Twitter. The volunteer group provided expertise and guidance on how Twitter could better combat hate and harassment and other harms but didn’t have any decision making authority and didn’t review specific content disputes. It was merely an advisory group. Council member Alex Holmes explained that Twitter’s Trust and Safety Council quote was a group of volunteers who over many years gave up their time when consulted by Twitter staff to offer advice on a wide range of online harms and safety issues. At no point he said, was it a governing body or a decision making body. The disbanding of that council came just days after three council members announced that they were resigning in a public statement posted on Twitter that said that quote contrary to claims by Elon Musk, the safety and well being of Twitter users are on the decline. Those former council members soon became the target of online attacks after Musk amplified criticism of them and Twitter’s past leadership for allegedly not doing enough to stop child sexual exploitation on the platform.
Yes, the notion that is central to the entire Qanon conspiracy network. Musk tweeted quote, it is a crime that they refused to take action on child exploitation for years. He tweeted that without any actual evidence to support that very serious charge. Former Twitter employee Patricia Cartes, whose job it was to form that trust and safety council back in 2016, said that, on Monday, it’s dissolution, quote means there’s no more checks and balances unquote. That’s especially true now that Musk has laid off well over half of the company’s staff begging the question of whether anybody other than Musk himself is actually on the job of preventing dangerous or violent or harassing or racist or misleading tweets and accounts on the service with 10s of millions of people. Earlier on the very same day that the Trust and Safety Council was disbanded. The person actually employed by Twitter to head up its trust and safety policies reportedly had to flee his home due to an escalation in threats from Musk’s campaign of criticism against him. According to a person familiar with the matter. Yoel Roth, who resigned from the social media company in November has in recent weeks faced a storm of attacks and threats of violence, following the release of those so called Twitter files.
Brad Friedman
That detail the highly selective internal Twitter communications released by Musk, including a number of them from Roth Roth’s position at the company involves him working on sensitive issues, including the eventual suspension of then President Donald Trump’s account back in 2021. And while Musk had been initially publicly supportive of Roth, well, things took a dark turn over this past weekend when Musk appeared to endorse a tweet that basically baselessly accused Ross of being sympathetic to pedophilia, which is a common trope used by conspiracy theorists like those involved with Qanon to attack people online. A person familiar with Roth’s situation told CNN that threats made against the former Twitter employee escalated exponentially after Musk himself engaged in the pedophilia conspiracy theory online.
Well, things have gone quickly downhill ever since I think as if they hadn’t hit rock bottom already, when Musk who himself has spread false claims, for example, about COVID-19. Well, he returned to that topic this week with a tweet that mocked transgender pronouns while calling for a criminal prosecution against Dr. Anthony Fauci, the nation’s top infectious disease expert, one of the leaders of the COVID-19 response under both Presidents Trump and Biden for prosecution for reasons that Musk did not bother to make clear.
So all of this is quickly escalating from dumb to dangerous. So is there anything that can actually be done about it by we, the people other than to watch all of this madness play out until people actually get hurt in real life? While I am still personally on Twitter myself at the Brad blog, I recently announced them also now available over at Mastodon an open source nonprofit social media service, though one with nowhere near the reach of Twitter. After signing up at Mastodon under the same name. At the Brad blog, I was greeted by an old activist friend and blogger, the creator of Spockosbrain.com, a blog. He tweets under that name and simply as Spocko over at Mastodon, one of his first comments to me over there was, “Hey, if you want to talk about Twitter and Musk, the harm he is causing to people and what we can do about it, drop me a line. “
Well, that sounds like a good idea What if anything can we do about it? Spocko has spent years taking on big corporate media villains, including way back in 2006. By way of just one example when he organized to try and defund right wing talk radio, after it had become poisoned with violence by folks like Michael Savage and Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh, he took on San Francisco’s talk radio giant KSFO winning himself a lawsuit from ABC and Disney that actually shut down his blog for a while until the Electronic Freedom Foundation helped him to Yes, beat Disney, believe it or not.
Blogger and activist Spocko continues at work even as he writes about science fiction and politics for his own blog. Spocko’s Brain and contributes to progressive blogs from such our friends such as Digby’s Hullabaloo and John Amato’s Crooks and Liars. His background also, as it turns out, happens to include preparing high tech executives, to talk to the media and to customers and investors. And as it turns out, back in the 1990s, he actually worked with Elon Musk on those very things. Before Elon Musk became rich and famous. And now well, well either loved or loathed by about half of Earth’s population, depending on who one asks. Oh, Mr. Spocko, thank you for joining us on the broadcast today, sir.
Michal Spocko 31:26
It’s great to be here.
Brad Friedman
You know, before we get to the meat of all of this, and what if anything, can actually be done about any of it. Is there anything that you can tell us Spocko? And I should note, that’s a pseudonym, he prefers to use that. So did not bring attention to the type of activist work he does. Is there anything that you can tell us about your time working with Musk? Even before he became I think before he became a gazillionaire, from PayPal, if I if I recall, anything you could tell us that might inform us about what we should know about him and his behavior today?
Michal Spocko
Yeah. I like to say to people, when I was done with him, he was fine.
Brad Friedman
But you didn’t break him,
Michal Spocko
I didn’t break him, actually, you know, I was brought in with a bunch of executives before they became famous. So you know, I work with the founders of Google, Sheryl Sandberg, those people, and at the time, what a big part of it is, is getting them basically to tell their story and you know, sell their product, and to not put their foot in their mouths. To not say terrible things. For example, some of them were very sexist. And they’re very much dismissive of the female reporters and journalists that I would bring in to, you know, prep them with. And so part of the thing we would say, like, we would record those videos and say, “So can you see how you’re condescending here?” And they would go “Oh, yeah.” And I was often brought in by the venture capitalists, and they were saying, basically, we will stop giving you money until you figure out how not to make a fool out of yourself. And that was the pressure. It was one of the things that I learned from working with these people on the corporate level. As they got more and more powerful. I would often be brought in by women professional communicators, and they’re going, “This guy is nuts. And he needs to go out on the road and talk to journalists. And we’re gonna screw up.” Well, he wouldn’t listen to them. So the venture capitalist is a you know, you need that.
Brad Friedman
You’re saying Musk wouldn’t listen to them?
Michal Spocko
They wouldn’t listen to the necessarily the women who we employed. The communication people employed. So that’s still true.
Brad Friedman
Personally, you’re not you’re not talking about these guys. In general, you’re talking specifically about Elon Musk, who wouldn’t listen to that. Okay.
Michal Spocko
So you needed to have an additional pressure, you know, an outside pressure that he either respected or he was worried about. And that was the thing that I learned then. And that was the thing that I took forward in the various different campaigns that I worked at, in order to see about stopping the harm coming from right wing media. And I, you know, knew the advertisers, I knew the people who worked there, and I said, “Hey, you know, you wouldn’t let somebody who worked for you say these horrible things.” And so they would, you know, pull their ads. The thing that we’re now talking about Musk and your your question is, “What do you do when somebody who has so much money and so much power, and then he gets rid of the truck, the checks and balances?
Brad Friedman
Yeah, I’m actually though before we get there, though, I because that is where I’m heading. But I want to make sure that we’re sort of working with the same set of facts, because I gotta tell you, Spocko, right now, you talk to you know, some people about what is going on at Twitter, and they, you know, they’ll tell you, “Oh, it’s and it’s all been exposed, you know, the hugest scandal of how the leftists at Twitter have been not just holding back the right wingers. But actually, they’ve turned this into here is how they stole the election, from Donald Trump in 2020, they have been caught red handed with election fraud.” It’s all ridiculous. That is not anything near what has at least has been documented as having happened based on those Twitter File threads that I’ve read. So I know that there’s lots of different opinions. Does my particular characterization of all of this in my intro there and so forth, does that mesh largely with yours? Or am I mischaracterizing or missing anything in particular, in that description?
Michal Spocko
You are right on the money. And there’s a line that you said in there that I’d like to point out, which was, “According to Musk.” okay. And I want to say, Musk lies, and he doesn’t explain the things fully. And he makes promises that he doesn’t keep. And there was a very funny little bit that was done on The Daily Show, about the promises that he’s made that he’s never kept in other areas, like his self driving car, like his Hyperloop. And that’s the thing that’s missing, which is, He has nobody who was going to say, “Well, that’s not true. And we can look at the facts and the details.” We can definitely see where he didn’t deliver, and where he made a promise. And it was not true.
Brad Friedman
And there’s this bizarre sort of thing going on where, you know, he’s making a claim that oh, you know, see what they did. They were so called Shadow Banning people, which is, you know, the people think they’re posting, but nobody else other than them is actually seeing it? Well, as it turns out, they weren’t shadow banning, there is no evidence of that, at least that they have presented to us, what they were doing is something called visibility, visibility filtering, where they, you know, prevent people from too many people from seeing certain things. It’s there, if you go to their particular page, you can see it on Twitter, but they just don’t share it a lot. Well, that is exactly while he’s been critical of that. That is exactly what Musk himself is now doing, saying, “Oh, were you know, these, all of these Nazis and racists were keeping their tweets from being seen.” There’s this bizarre sense of these people did something terrible. We’re doing something different, even while doing the exact same thing. It’s really bizarre.
Michal Spocko
Yeah, this is something that we’ve seen with conservatives where it isn’t real until it happens to them. And the the thing about what he was talking about, he made these problems himself. He’s the one who welcomed these people back. And they came back and they did what they have done before. And they em. The lawyer, Alejandra Caraballo. She’s a Harvard cyber law person and she’s in the LGBTQ+ community. And she’s pointed out that these are the kinds of harm that is being done by people. And we historically we know they do it. They come back and they do it again. They threaten people with death threats, and they didn’t have to come back. So what happens then? Musk would say, “Well, you know, we’ll report them and take them off.” Well, We can do that, but how long does it take? The harm is, it happened again. And it feels like there’s no recourse. So that’s one of the things I want to talk about is, “What are some of the recourse that people can do? Because of the harm that Musk himself initiated?
Brad Friedman
Yeah, exactly. And by the way, you know, it’s like watching this over and over again, because you ended up banning the same people that were banned in the first place for the same reasons that they were originally banned. It’s like, it doesn’t count until Elon Musk is there to see why it’s necessary, personally. Okay. Spocko. So what, if anything can or should be done now? And I will underscored that this is a private company, after all, Elon Musk can largely Do with it as he sees fit after, you know, wildly overpaying for the company by 10s of billions of dollars. So is for a start the best answer to simply walk away from the service? Because I will tell you, for me, at least, it is still where all the people actually are.
Michal Spocko
You know, just the comment that you say I want to deal with this. “It’s a private company and he can do as he sees fit.” Within boundaries. Within reasons. And you had Sue Wilson,
Brad Friedman
What what reasons? As long as he’s legally operating it he can do as he sees fit, right?
Michal Spocko
Right. Well, there’s some legal things that are still not allowed. And there are some things that are, we don’t always have to get into legal, that are just horrific, that are bad, that we can we can talk about. And you had Sue Wilson on a couple of weeks ago, she was great. And one of the metaphors that she brought up, which I thought was fascinating, was talking about the what’s coming out of there as if it was a toxic gas. And out of we were talking about Alex Jones, and I thought about
Brad Friedman
it just for people to hear. She’s a media expert, and she’s been calling for Alex Jones to be removed from the public airwaves. [Spocko, Right,] due to FCC violations and so forth. Yeah, press on.
Michal Spocko
And so it would be as if Musk in this is what he did, he brought back on, he he owns the factory, you know, he can do as he wants to the factory. So he brought back the people who had previously unleashed a toxic gas on the community and distributed through their pipeline to multiple communities around the country. And they were fired for doing that. And he said, “Come on back and I’m going to remove the guard rails, the the safety monitors, who are there, and I’m gonna put a couple of robots in there to to check it out. The robots, they’re gonna, we’re gonna stop it. ” Well, they come back, and they start making toxic gas again, and the robots miss it. And it gets out a bunch of people, and people get sick and die. And then you say, “Oh, well, he owns the factory. What are you gonna do?”
Brad Friedman
Well, actually, in that case, yeah, one could say that. But what I would say is that, yeah, he owns a factory, but he still can’t do things that are illegal. It is not illegal, for example, to put Donald Trump back on the service, as offensive as it is, and he is. As dangerous as it might be to have, you know, COVID deniers and election deniers back on the service or even, you know, Kanye West, racists and Nazis, you know, posting swastikas. None of that is illegal. Unlike, you know, releasing toxic gas that kills people would be.
Michal Spocko
Yeah, and I like to talk about this as what is legal and illegal. That is a decision. And we always like to use the First Amendment example of saying, What can’t you do? Well, you can’t what is the one that they say? “You can’t falsely yell fire in a crowded theater.” Now what’s that about? It’s about doing something, saying something that will lead to harm. Disinformation that will lead to harm. And it’s a very specific type of disinformation harm. And we talk about what’s legal and illegal. And one of the things that we know is that disinformation can be harmful and illegal. And we can decide to do things as a society, we can make it illegal and we can decide to say, “We as a country don’t want to pass the law, but your private business should do something. You should have guardrails, and we’re going to make it so that you can have speech. But if you go beyond these guardrails that we decide, then there will be consequences.”
Brad Friedman
So the consequences are not four directly for Twitter or Musk himself, but rather the companies that are because this is an advertiser based model Twitter right now. So you go, you’re suggesting go after the companies who are advertising on Twitter the way I know you have in your various campaigns worked with various folks, Media Matters, etc, to go after the advertisers on the Glenn Beck show when he was on Fox News, etc. Is that what needs to be done to target those advertisers who are still on Twitter?
Michal Spocko
Yes, that is one method. Because that is the reason that I went after them. I said, “Look, they can say what they want, but they don’t have to get rich doing it. And they don’t necessarily want to have their brand associated with something that is violent. They don’t want to have it associated with something that is horrific. And they are very clear about “I don’t want to be next to something. And I don’t necessarily want to associate my brand.” And so they pull their ads. Now, let me tell you what happened with this multiple groups got together. And they said, they went to the advertising events. And this is Color of Change, Free Press, Media Matters for America, a bunch of different civil rights activists went to their advertise and say, :”He’s going to hurt your brand by doing and saying terrible things.” He’s letting these people who had been suspended for illegal content, not just difference of opinion, got back. And so a bunch of them pulled their ads, a bunch of them paused it. Now, what happened after that? This is the thing that people want to remember is that, when you take an action, realize they will have a response. And they won’t necessarily, you know, stop. Okay? So we need, the group needs to go back again. What did Musk do? He said, “Oh, I’m going to fix things with robots.” And what he did was, he had, like, for example, his Twitter Blue failed campaign, where he allowed people to come back on with for $8 and have a check mark. And so people did disinformation, they parodied or they mocked and pretended to be companies like Eli Lilly. Now, Eli, Lilly, someone put out a tweet that said, you know, insulin, it’s, we’re gonna make it free or whatever. And it’s, it turned into costing Eli Lilly, a $4 billion market cap. So what happened, then? Will Musk. you know, pull it and changed it. That was the kind of harm that a corporation with resources experienced. And so they said, you know, stop and Musk said , Oh, I’m gonna, you know, do that again. What about the harm for people? All of those advertisers, they saw what his failure to deliver on his safety promises. So then people in the groups, they went back to the advertisers and said, Hey, pay, keep paying attention to this, because they’re gonna run horrific things next to your ads. Musk, and this is the thing that learned from Silicon Valley. A lot of these people, the engineer mindset is, “Well, I’ll just do an iteration. I’ll do this. And then…” He then put out, he said,”I’ve got a new bot, that’s going to change things so that everybody can go out and put their ads up, and they won’t be next to this violent, you know, speech or whatever.” That’s not going to work.
And this is one of the things that you talked about earlier, getting rid of the brand Trust and Safety Group, because humans are necessary involved in this process, because it’s complex and humans can see things like oh, well, they changed the phrase from Okay, groomer, instead of calling people a pedophile. All right? They have a campaign, the group and you mentioned, Yoel Roth, who was the head of Trust and Safety. One of the reasons that these people are under attack is because they’re the ones who are in charge of anticipating and looking at how to keep people safe. And I thought that this is this was one way you go to the advertisers and you say, and the group that got together the Free Press, they said, “Brand Safety” this is what is it, it’s brand safety, brand safety can also lead to human safety. So,
Brad Friedman
So how does so if this group that you reference a number of organizations, nonprofits and so forth are going to Musk and saying this is what needs to be done or else you’re going to lose or actually they’re not going to Musk, I guess they’re going to the advertisers. [Spocko: Yeah} figuring out who is still advertising? By the way. You mentioned Disney, I noticed that Disney was recently advertising on Twitter since Musk has taken over. Are they having an effect on those advertisers? I do understand advertising, the rates are down something like 80%. Is that because of this effort? And, as that goes forward? Are you suggesting that people like me should just leave? Does that help in any way to leave the service? Because like I said, right now, that’s where all the people are.
Michal Spocko
Right? Right. Yeah, that’s, that’s one, that’s one option. It’s also saying, “What other areas of pressure can we put on somebody who may not care about the advertising revenue? And this is one of the things it’s like, “Hey, I gotta, I gotta billion dollars, I can create a subscription service, or I can lose money for several months, because I don’t want to change.” or “I’ll bring in really low end advertisers to try and fill the gap.” So one, keep telling the advertisers and saying, “Look, here’s an additional new horrific things that comes out, so that they will keep going away. Two, look at other ways to pressure them, and other groups that have power over them. Now, you might have heard, this is another thing that say, when the Musk had, there might have been a story, which was Apple, the App Store said we might remove the Twitter app from the store, because it doesn’t meet our criteria for a social media app. And this was some this was one of the ways that Parler was used to kind of keep it in they said “You need to have a system,
Brad Friedman
That was a right-wing a wing, another social media service, basically devoted to right wingers and I should note Spocko I’ve got just a minute or two here, I gotta wrap up. So go ahead okay, .
Michal Spocko
So one of the things they do is, we will go to apple and say, people went to the Twitter store and say, :”I feel unsafe on this app now.” And people went in, you know, did a review did a one star, you alert them that this is an unsafe app. Now, Musk went down to down to Cook and said, “Oh, you know, give me time, you know, I, I’m gonna keep going.” That is another way that we pressure people who are like this, we say, “You need to have a way that keeps people safe on this app. And if you don’t, then Apple goes, ‘Hey, we might remove you from the store. ‘” The other thing, the next thing we need to look at is ways that people can have some negative financial consequences to Musk. And that’s where I talked about and we can’t get into this about the health care workers who got threatened, which was you start working on lawsuits, civil lawsuits, like defamation lawsuits, in order to say “Stop doing this.” And this something like Elon could do. I mean, we could do against Elon.
Brad Friedman
And now Spocko. The, it sounds like A, one message here is speak up. If you’re troubled by all of this, let the people know if you see them advertising on Twitter, if you’re, you know, in the App Store or the Apple App Store, if you’re unhappy with what you are seeing from this service, let them know speak up that makes a difference is there to your knowledge, yet sort of an organized group to be supported? Who is, you know, detailing who these advertisers are and so forth. Any websites that you can give us along those lines yet?
Michal Spocko
That’s still to be developed, this group is going to go back that I worked with before. They are gathering new information in order to say “Hey, it is not appropriate.” The other group that I’m not going to be able to get into is Twitter’s International. And there’s other places, like the EU, that say you need to have something in place or we’re going to cut you off. That’s the other area that I was gonna I can talk about, but we don’t have time right now. There are other ways to pressure them because we need to reduce the harm through this particular on this particular platform.
Brad Friedman
Keep up the pressure Spocko Keep in touch with us. We will try to help out as we can you know us To be able to tell people to go raise hell on Twitter. Now you’ll, you know, maybe get removed for doing exactly that. I should note, by the way Spocko, you said that that Twitter Blue service that he had that was a subscription service that it was charging $8 a month. He took it offline it there was some big problems with it. Last night late last night I noticed it was returned. It is now $11 a month and they promise quote coming soon rocket to the top of replies and mentions and searches, tweets from verified users will be prioritized helping to fight scams and spam. In other words, doing the exact same thing that the pre Elon Musk Twitter did. That made the right wingers so angry. So soon, you’ll be able to buy your free speech buy it right up to the top of replies and mentions and searches just as Elon Musk says, you know, he’s a free speech absolute absolutist, I guess if you can afford $11 a month in any event. Michal Spocko You can find him at Spocko’s Brain on Twitter. If he’s still there on Mastodon. He is simply Spocko. And of course his website is Spockosbrain.com. Spocko. My friend great speaking with you stay in touch. We’ll talk about that as it moves forward. Thank you, brother.
